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Let’s see…..sweep the floor, take out trash, scrub the toilets, clean the counter tops, do any other
Bullshit jobs that some lazy a$$ doesn’t want to do, share all your work for someone
To potentially steal it? All to learn how to tatto, probably from some idiot that can’t
Draw a stick figure…nah….ill pass. I just don’t get it….do you seriously think your mentor
Will really share his secrets? I’m a artist and have a few of my own and I don’t care
If you come clean my house every day of the week…your not getting them. -
Viper,
Most skilled professions require that the individual who wants to learn them goes to a vocational school. There are no real secrets in the tattoo industry any more. The information is available for sale in countless books and DVDs. You could consider these things tattoo secrets I guess. If you are an artist and you utilize your apprentices for labour and you are not teaching them anything then you are a pretty lame example of a mentor.
Tattoo apprenticeships are not really supposed to be slave labour. The reason so many of the old school artists would haze their apprentices, using them for excessive chores and things outside the shop was because tattoo was once a VERY guarded profession. The artists did not poses very much artistic skill, only technical knowledge. There is a big difference in tattooing. You should be an artist before you become a tattooist. If you are very secretive and guarded about your profession it is typically because you are worried that the apprentice is actually a better artist – and if he grasps the technical skills that you might have – then he might open his own shop or take clients from you (insecurity leads to secrecy).The reason that I advocate an apprenticeship is not because I feel that you have to “earn your stripes” so to speak, but you can not learn all of the technical stuff simply from books and DVDs. You might get the gist of it – but you really need to see the hands on first person view of it. This can just as easily be done by paying an artist to tattoo your arms for 20 hours while you take notes mentally. I have had a few apprentices, and I am not an amazing tattoo artist by any means. I look at it as a symbol of success if my apprentice is better than me after 6 – 12 months of actual tattooing. I tried to take on apprentices who were already established artists and had a giant ability – they just needed to know the technical aspect.
That should be the mentality of the mentor who is training an apprentice. I am friends will all the individuals who (I like to think I helped) I have trained. I believe that says a lot about the way they apprenticed under me. Sure they were setting up my tattoo station for a long time, and broke down the station – an cleaned the bathrooms. I was lucky and I had a really good mentor myself – who never asked me to clean or break down anything… it was implied. I always had everything done before I was asked. This was because I was so eager to learn the trade and improve my own skills.
I have a degree in graphic design, which cost me around $50,000.00 – I have another degree in Information Science, which cost about the same. I could have just as easily worked for a graphic design studio and looked over a senior artist’s shoulder and done all the “bitch work” in the studio. Either way – you have to pay to learn. The apprenticeship is not meant to be degrading, it is a way for the artist to have hired help in the studio – the payment is information and education. If you are an apprentice and you are constantly being told to do things – then you are not a good apprentice. If you are a mentor and you are not sharing any “secrets” then you are not a good mentor.
You get what you put into this industry, and to me it is more important to share the information and make friends – than it is to belittle someone and make them my shop slave, running my personal errands. With that being said, any one of the individuals who at one point called themselves my apprentice – would gladly run to the store for me – or run personal errands (had I ever asked them to). That type of respect is earned, and it takes a certain level of life experience to respect the apprenticeship process and maturity to call yourself a mentor.
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^^^^^^That was a great post^^^^^^^
I went to a tech school once for motorcycle mechanics. I learned more in 3 months under my “mentor” at the shop I worked at than I ever did in school. Am I going to get a tattoo apprenticeship? Nah…not my thing. But I’d agree that you can’t underestimate the value of someone willing to share their experience with you…because experience is where it’s at.
Mark
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@canvasyou wrote:
Viper,
Most skilled professions require that the individual who wants to learn them goes to a vocational school. There are no real secrets in the tattoo industry any more. The information is available for sale in countless books and DVDs. You could consider these things tattoo secrets I guess. If you are an artist and you utilize your apprentices for labour and you are not teaching them anything then you are a pretty lame example of a mentor.
Tattoo apprenticeships are not really supposed to be slave labour. The reason so many of the old school artists would haze their apprentices, using them for excessive chores and things outside the shop was because tattoo was once a VERY guarded profession. The artists did not poses very much artistic skill, only technical knowledge. There is a big difference in tattooing. You should be an artist before you become a tattooist. If you are very secretive and guarded about your profession it is typically because you are worried that the apprentice is actually a better artist – and if he grasps the technical skills that you might have – then he might open his own shop or take clients from you (insecurity leads to secrecy).The reason that I advocate an apprenticeship is not because I feel that you have to “earn your stripes” so to speak, but you can not learn all of the technical stuff simply from books and DVDs. You might get the gist of it – but you really need to see the hands on first person view of it. This can just as easily be done by paying an artist to tattoo your arms for 20 hours while you take notes mentally. I have had a few apprentices, and I am not an amazing tattoo artist by any means. I look at it as a symbol of success if my apprentice is better than me after 6 – 12 months of actual tattooing. I tried to take on apprentices who were already established artists and had a giant ability – they just needed to know the technical aspect.
That should be the mentality of the mentor who is training an apprentice. I am friends will all the individuals who (I like to think I helped) I have trained. I believe that says a lot about the way they apprenticed under me. Sure they were setting up my tattoo station for a long time, and broke down the station – an cleaned the bathrooms. I was lucky and I had a really good mentor myself – who never asked me to clean or break down anything… it was implied. I always had everything done before I was asked. This was because I was so eager to learn the trade and improve my own skills.
I have a degree in graphic design, which cost me around $50,000.00 – I have another degree in Information Science, which cost about the same. I could have just as easily worked for a graphic design studio and looked over a senior artist’s shoulder and done all the “bitch work” in the studio. Either way – you have to pay to learn. The apprenticeship is not meant to be degrading, it is a way for the artist to have hired help in the studio – the payment is information and education. If you are an apprentice and you are constantly being told to do things – then you are not a good apprentice. If you are a mentor and you are not sharing any “secrets” then you are not a good mentor.
You get what you put into this industry, and to me it is more important to share the information and make friends – than it is to belittle someone and make them my shop slave, running my personal errands. With that being said, any one of the individuals who at one point called themselves my apprentice – would gladly run to the store for me – or run personal errands (had I ever asked them to). That type of respect is earned, and it takes a certain level of life experience to respect the apprenticeship process and maturity to call yourself a mentor.
:!: :!: :!:I agree with that 100% in terms of the attitude a mentor should take with their apprentice. The only problem, is when someone goes into a studio and asks to become an apprentice, they get shown the door. Asking the artist who does all your work and you get on well with if you can mentor under them could wind up costing you that working friendship, and set you looking for a new artist just to get more work done, let alone consider asking to apprentice… It really is not worth the risk of offending them… If someone can get an apprenticeship, then great. Great that they are lucky enough to be in the situation to do so. For everyone else though, it’s a vicious circle of:
Scenario A:
Guy “Can I apprentice under you?
Artist “Have you any experience?”
Guy “I’ve never held a machine before…”
Artist “Come back when you have a portfolio…”
Guy “How do I get more experience and a portfolio when no-one will teach me?”Scenario B:
Guy “Can I apprentice under you?
Artist “Have you any experience?”
Guy “Yeah, I’ve done a few tattoos on myself and some of my friends…”
Artist “Get the fuck outta my studio, you scratcher scum, I’m gonna break your thumbs before you give someone AIDS!!!”
Guy :shock: :o :shock: :o :( -
Your portfolio that you bring to the tattoo shop – when trying to become an apprentice – should not include tattoos. You should have a portfolio of art work. You should not have experience to become an apprentice.
It is not advised that you show your “scratcher” work to a professional shop.
It is hard to get an apprenticeship – i am not arguing that.
I was also not stating that an apprenticeship is the only way to learn to tattoo.I was simply implying that you will excel fast as an apprentice – you will save yourself a lot of time. You will also get feedback to questions and your work will rapidly progress.
I was also implying that if you are a mentor you should treat those who apprentice under you with respect.
You want to learn to tattoo – if you want to learn bad enough, you might have to put up with some Bull Shit.
That’s the way it is in this industry…for now anyway.I see things changing though – keep an eye on things.
If you really want to be an apprentice… you have to get a solid portfolio – and you have to get tattooed by an artist you like – over and over
build a relationship with him or her – let them know you are not a douche bag. Let them know you are serious about it.This is also like “paying” to learn. Most artists will not complain if you ask a 100 questions – if you are a “regular” client…. think about that.
You can learn to tattoo – and get some quality sleeves at the same time – without taking out the trash..But if you walk in expecting to get the keys to the castle without putting in some type of dues – then you are disillusioned.
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A little background information on myself….
Been involved in some form of art for most of my life, I am now 45. I studied art in college, i have painted in all formats such as acrylic, oils, watercolor, you name it, the ONLY medium i hadnt done was tattoo. I have done Graphic illustration/design and won a few contests in doing so, recently was $500.00 from a very prominent advertiser. Never once took a class in Graphics but have designed logos, art works, and other graphic illustrations, and sold them…I studied it, learned all i could then applied some common sense! I use Adobe CS5, i am proficient in Photoshop as well as illustrator. I have sold many painting in galleries and was a top seller for a gallery in New Orleans.Would i take a portfolio to a tattoo shop, probably not….its just not my style. Im not saying i am right or wrong but its not for me. I have really no desire to apprentice under an artist that i am likely better at, and I dont say that as bragging its just the truth.
I was offered on more than one occassion to actually become an apprentice and work at a shop and have turned it down, my schedule just wont allow for it at the present time. Bare in mind this shop was not interested in my scrubbing toilets to learn how to tattoo, but more interested in the talent i could potentially bring to the shop.
I also, as crazy as this my sound am not interested in getting covered in tattoo’s just to become an apprentice or to “Ask Questions”. When i get a tattoo its because there is a reason behind it, not just to be able to build a report with the shop.
If someone came to me and ask me to be a Graphic Illustration apprentice, I would have to think long and hard about it. They would have to have artistic ability, be able to use and understand a computer, and have a bit of common sense, and a quick learner. Would I ask or imply they clean my floor, or take out my trash? Certainly not, why on Earth would i even think that would be their job just because they are trying to learn graphics? I can understand station setup but cleaning the bathroom? Really…sorry….not my cup of noodles!!! Guess I need to stop watching NY INK…LOL!!!! :lol: :lol:
anyhow….some good information in the post and THANK YOU to all that responded. I wasnt really trying to start a debate but was looking for some general opinins as to how folks felt about the whole “apprenticeship”. My last
comment: guarded Secrets…I got a few tricks I use in Graphics, good luck getting those out of me. I would think the same to apply to tattooing.CANVASYOU: excellent comments, glad to hear you dont belittle your apprentices…I admire you for that.!
:mrgreen:
viper -
@canvasyou wrote:
Your portfolio that you bring to the tattoo shop – when trying to become an apprentice – should not include tattoos. You should have a portfolio of art work. You should not have experience to become an apprentice.
It is not advised that you show your “scratcher” work to a professional shop.
Interesting perspective… A former friend took his scratcher work to a professional studio, and that was what made the artist allow him to work there, rather than paying to apprentice under him. I think if someone is already tattooing (flesh, not practice materials) then there is very little an apprenticeship can actually teach them, other than maybe suggesting different techniques, or maybe better machine set up (if the person hasn’t yet had the stones to take their machine apart and re-build it…)
@canvasyou wrote:
It is hard to get an apprenticeship – i am not arguing that.
I was also not stating that an apprenticeship is the only way to learn to tattoo.I was simply implying that you will excel fast as an apprentice – you will save yourself a lot of time. You will also get feedback to questions and your work will rapidly progress.
I was also implying that if you are a mentor you should treat those who apprentice under you with respect.
You want to learn to tattoo – if you want to learn bad enough, you might have to put up with some Bull Shit.
That’s the way it is in this industry…for now anyway.There’s never a need to put up with bullshit. If someone feels the need to haze or use their apprentice for ‘out of shop chores’, then that isn’t a mentor, that is a bully on an ego trip, and I was agreeing with your point about such behaviour. How much tolerance a person might have for being asked to wax the car or clean the pool or get the dry cleaning, has no correlation to how dedicated someone is to learning how to tattoo. If you can find Jodie Marsh: Tattoo Apprentice on YouTube, this one-off show shows very clearly the difference between an artist who was willing to teach, and someone who was just being a jackass for the sake of it, then trying to cover it up under the guise of ‘cross contamination’ concerns. Yes, apprenticing in a studio will allow easier access to frequent clients and someone on hand to ask questions to/get advice from, but let’s be honest here, tattooing is not rocket science, nor is it brain surgery. I’ve seen many artists trying to defend apprenticeships by pointing out doctor’s and surgeons need to have years of training, but the fact is, while tattooing will leave a relatively permanent mark on the skin, it is nowhere near as invasive or drastic as surgery, and it is not (under normal circumstances) life-threatening.
@canvasyou wrote:
I see things changing though – keep an eye on things.
If you really want to be an apprentice… you have to get a solid portfolio – and you have to get tattooed by an artist you like – over and over
build a relationship with him or her – let them know you are not a douche bag. Let them know you are serious about it.This is also like “paying” to learn. Most artists will not complain if you ask a 100 questions – if you are a “regular” client…. think about that.
You can learn to tattoo – and get some quality sleeves at the same time – without taking out the trash..But if you walk in expecting to get the keys to the castle without putting in some type of dues – then you are disillusioned.
Personally, I would be happy to teach someone I had never met before, if they were genuinely interested and willing to learn. I think the real issue, is wether the artist is willing to teach someone who might then become a threat to their business. If they’re good, they won’t lose clients even when their apprentice starts tattooing :)
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@Viper65 wrote:
I also, as crazy as this my sound am not interested in getting covered in tattoo’s just to become an apprentice or to “Ask Questions”. When i get a tattoo its because there is a reason behind it, not just to be able to build a report with the shop.
Precisely. Any work I have done is significant, none of it is random, and none of it deserves to be ‘tainted’ by the side-intent of acquiring the artist’s knowledge, just the original reason for wanting to get the tattoo :)
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@KitchenWizard wrote:
@Viper65 wrote:
I also, as crazy as this my sound am not interested in getting covered in tattoo’s just to become an apprentice or to “Ask Questions”. When i get a tattoo its because there is a reason behind it, not just to be able to build a report with the shop.
Precisely. Any work I have done is significant, none of it is random, and none of it deserves to be ‘tainted’ by the side-intent of acquiring the artist’s knowledge, just the original reason for wanting to get the tattoo :)
8-)
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Kitchenwizard: I think if someone is already tattooing (flesh, not practice materials) then there is very little an apprenticeship can actually teach them, other than maybe suggesting different techniques, or maybe better machine set up (if the person hasn’t yet had the stones to take their machine apart and re-build it…)
I agree 1000%…..and actually, I would like to make a few “suggestions” to some of these Professional shops. :twisted:
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@Viper65 wrote:
I agree 1000%…..and actually, I would like to make a few “suggestions” to some of these Professional shops. :twisted:
I hear you, amigo, I’ve been on the receiving end of some shoddy work from studios, and had an artist put their own spin on a design my wife wanted without her permission… I don’t think many are anything more than self-important poseurs who hide behind their certificate rather than producing good work ;)
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@KitchenWizard wrote:
@Viper65 wrote:
I agree 1000%…..and actually, I would like to make a few “suggestions” to some of these Professional shops. :twisted:
I hear you, amigo, I’ve been on the receiving end of some shoddy work from studios, and had an artist put their own spin on a design my wife wanted without her permission… I don’t think many are anything more than self-important poseurs who hide behind their certificate rather than producing good work ;)
yea…we should all want to be apprentices under these guys and pay them to boot!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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@Viper65 wrote:
@KitchenWizard wrote:
@Viper65 wrote:
I agree 1000%…..and actually, I would like to make a few “suggestions” to some of these Professional shops. :twisted:
I hear you, amigo, I’ve been on the receiving end of some shoddy work from studios, and had an artist put their own spin on a design my wife wanted without her permission… I don’t think many are anything more than self-important poseurs who hide behind their certificate rather than producing good work ;)
yea…we should all want to be apprentices under these guys and pay them to boot!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: Not in this lifetime :lol: :lol: :lol:
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@Viper65 wrote:
I also, as crazy as this my sound am not interested in getting covered in tattoo’s just to become an apprentice or to “Ask Questions”. When i get a tattoo its because there is a reason behind it, not just to be able to build a report with the shop.
This is simply a way to learn to tattoo that would not require you to clean toilets.
If you are above “working” in a tattoo shop to pay off the education, and you are “not interested” in getting tattoos to get face time with a good artist who you admire – because you don’t want to be covered in random tattoos… you sound more like a tattoo client than a tattoo artist to me.When you work / live in a tattoo shop – you get dozens of shitty tattoos from your friends all day long – because they want to try new stuff out. You help each other progress – and you know that in the future the fuck ups can be corrected – but pretty soon you have less and less bad tattoos.
The funny thing about tattooing is that you always are progressing –
If you are worried about having some random jibberish on your body because you have to have a master planned canvas of your own.. then you might want to re-think this industry. You should be practicing on YOURSELF and each other in the shop – that IS part of the tattoo apprenticeship. You should NOT be practicing on paying customers so you can progress. and what better way to get good at tattooing than to watch someone else? What better way to watch someone else than to have them tattoo YOU!I never said you have to get a random tattoo from a random guy – I said get tattooed by an artist you admire – for 10 – 20 hours… and WATCH… that is the best way to not only get a front row seat from a master – but it is also a way to get in good with a shop. You said you don’t want to build a rapport with a shop – but you complain that shops are cold and mean to you when you walk in. You can not have it both ways.
Either suck it up and be the shop lacky and earn your keep, get tattoos from a pro and watch, or scratch at home and hope you get good enough through trial and error…
there are thousands of people doing all three every day… Some will argue that the others are incorrect. I personally don’t care what anyone else does – but I have seen amazing artists who wanted to learn tattoo – that did a proper apprenticeship – learning from a pro – and they were doing AMAZING tattoos in under 12 months, some rival pros who have been tattooing for 8-10 years. -
@canvasyou wrote:
@Viper65 wrote:
When you work / live in a tattoo shop – you get dozens of shitty tattoos from your friends all day long – because they want to try new stuff out. You help each other progress – and you know that in the future the fuck ups can be corrected – but pretty soon you have less and less bad tattoos.
The funny thing about tattooing is that you always are progressing –
If you are worried about having some random jibberish on your body because you have to have a master planned canvas of your own.. then you might want to re-think this industry. You should be practicing on YOURSELF and each other in the shop – that IS part of the tattoo apprenticeship. You should NOT be practicing on paying customers so you can progress. and what better way to get good at tattooing than to watch someone else? What better way to watch someone else than to have them tattoo YOU!Personally speaking, I have a major project planned, but when I’ve let people use my skin to practice, I’ve simply had them do pieces which were within their ability, such as kanji, cherry blossoms, leaf outlines etc, but, they were designs which were already planned/plotted in the overall bodysuit. I’ve also done the same thing when practicing on myself, although I must admit, some of the stuff I have done on myself, such as the kanji on my thighs, was not originally part of the planned design, but became such as part of the evolution of the design as new concepts and ideas came to me :) I have never charged a client for ‘practice work’, because the trust and opportunity to work on their skin is payment enough :) I did see a guy on one of the Inks (I forget which) who was a tattoo artist, but was not heavily tattooed himself, having come into the industry (as well as changing his view towards tattoos) later in life.
@canvasyou wrote:
Either suck it up and be the shop lacky and earn your keep, get tattoos from a pro and watch, or scratch at home and hope you get good enough through trial and error…
That seemed to work for Corey Miller, Kat Von D and Tim Hendricks ;)
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My 2 cents….Ive been labeled a “scratcher” for about 10 years. ONLY because when asked where i started, I told the truth…in my kitchen with a toothbrush and walkman motor. I personally have been “walked” out of many tattoo shops “JUST BECAUSE” of me stating the facts of where i came from. Now, before I get too detailed, Ive NEVER had a proper apprentice. I do own professional equipment, I use only disposables now, and I can turn any space into a proper sterile tattoo environment. No, I didnt have a graphic design class. No, I didnt major in Art in college. No, I cant sculpt life out of clay. I LOVE to draw, and I LOVE to tattoo. I absolutely feel in my SOUL this is what I was made to do. I have learned alot on my own thru trial and error, which i have grown from and used that experience to better my art. I do agree, an apprentiship is not the ONLY way to go, but I can say this…The little bit of info I have been shown by an actual artist is PRICELESS. If I would have been told this info from jump street, I would have been WAY further advanced than I am now. I see why both are important as Canvas has pointed out. I had feedback IMEDIATELY….Not in a few days when it scabs over. I also know how hard to get one is, especially with my background, and I will NEVER lie about that. I would hate the mistrust if i were to lie and say, “Ive never held a machine a day in my life, but i like to draw and in my opinion, im good!” and then get an apprenctice, and then the mentor find I had lied…So I will continue to be labeled a “scratcher” continue to come from the same background, and continue to “scratch” my way in a shop if that is what it takes, If i get to a shop with a notable artist, I would clean the toilet to get info, i would scrub the floors to get advice. Thats just me, but if someone is not willing to do what it takes, then you may be hindering and slowing your actual progress down.
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There is nothing wrong with admitting you were a “scratcher” when you are trying to get an apprenticeship… If the guys at the shop “walk you out” – then they are more than likely hypocrites –
Almost all tattoo artists have tattooed at their home – before working a shop.
It is not the end of the world. But any artist who has tattooed in a shop – and especially those who completed some type of apprenticeship will tell you it is invaluable. -
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@Viper65 wrote:
……….a few things come to mind that arent really legal…. :twisted:
Personally, i would pick up and move forward, obviously you have some talent, so just keep searching till you find what your looking for in a shop.
Thank you for those kind words Viper65
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