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Hey folks, first real post for me here and i thought id start with the obvious, my apprenticeship. lets start with a little background. 29, modestly successful in the IT/computer world for about 10 years, first degree was in fine arts, after a wake up call in the “real world” i stopped graphics and converted to the IT world in search of money! well that almost killed my spirit. So now i’m giving it a real go, and chasing my dreams to do what i have always loved, yada yada, blah blah. Well i started 6 weeks ago in a shop here in Los Angeles. Its more of an old school shop but not in the Americana or street shop terms. Its a custom shop with 2 permanent artists, one of which is the owner and very well known artist in his style. that aside, i wanted to quickly discuss ethics, moral, and what to expect and what to put up with. I am coming at this apprenticeship with a very clear idea. LEARN TO TATTOO AND TAKE IN AS MUCH INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE, PUT UP WITH WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO, BUT ENDURE. So this attitude has got me through some hard shit and also some easy shit, quickly.
Lets get to the meat.
So my teacher is a 30 yr veteran of the industry, and learned from the last ones at the Pike. He also did his first apprenticeship at an H.A shop in SD, and for all intense purposes embodies that quagmire of personality. anyways, there’s the picture, here’s some details of what i’m putting up with….
This apprenticeship is very much the old school one, the one where you constantly get yelled at, do chores outside of the shop (booking flights, packing bags, driving to the airport, painting houses (not yet, but it has been implied), taking care of his animals, food, and everything and anything under the freakin sun) this is all fine and dandy, but now after “going through the hazing period) or what i thought was the end we have reached a new level of losing my self respect. My new tasks, mind you i am an accomplished and successful person who has a family and wife of many yrs. My new task is to make a dunce cap decorated with Disney bullshit. snarf snarf. chuckle chuckle. yeah i get it, but now we are approaching a new level of disrespect. i can put up with a lot of bullshit, grew up on base with a bunch of military shitheads, i get it. yippee! but at some point you have to reflect on the root cause of this hazing, his break you down build you back up part, and also his competency as a businessman or woman. this is the stage i am at, and yeah i’m not at wits end, but i am at a point of standing up and calling bullshit. paid my money, have a written contract (of which doesn’t have jargon for dismissal, only skills learned, and cash amounts). so id love to hear your thoughts on the dunce, on the whole thing, and shit id love to hear some freaking keep your chin up shit too haha. cheers guys thanks for listening.
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Is he asking you to make the dunce hat and THEN draw the disney figures on it? If so that’s an awesome idea, you get to learn to draw on a curved surface that varies in size. Being able to draw on a flat surface is one thing, drawing on a curved surface is something else.
As far as the rest of the stuff he’s asking you to do: Are you paying for your apprenticeship? If so I think anything outside of working in the shop is asking too much and I’d have to question whether they were good enough to warrant me binning my self respect. Cleaning toilets, breaking down and setting up cleaning the shop these are all perfectly acceptable as cleanliness is the most important part of the business, getting a crap tattoo is one thing, getting a crap tattoo and Hep is something else…
Most importantly: Keep your chin up :) deep breaths and count to 10.. it’s not so easy to get an apprenticeship but it will be worth it in the end.
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@Tarantula wrote:
Is he asking you to make the dunce hat and THEN draw the disney figures on it? If so that’s an awesome idea, you get to learn to draw on a curved surface that varies in size. Being able to draw on a flat surface is one thing, drawing on a curved surface is something else.
As far as the rest of the stuff he’s asking you to do: Are you paying for your apprenticeship? If so I think anything outside of working in the shop is asking too much and I’d have to question whether they were good enough to warrant me binning my self respect. Cleaning toilets, breaking down and setting up cleaning the shop these are all perfectly acceptable as cleanliness is the most important part of the business, getting a crap tattoo is one thing, getting a crap tattoo and Hep is something else…
Most importantly: Keep your chin up :) deep breaths and count to 10.. it’s not so easy to get an apprenticeship but it will be worth it in the end.
Cheers Tarantula, this sounds like you’ve heard this one before. Yes disney characters. how ironic, and im guessing this is an old school tradition. i get the curved surface thing, and thanks for the chin up. oh and yes i am paying for the apprenticeship.
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@TexasPT wrote:
I’d tell him to fuck off…but that’s just me. (this could be one reason why I have no desire to seek an apprenticeship)
Mark
YUP! :D
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I have alot of my own apprenticeship woes. And this schoolkid bullshit, this college style hazing that is so popular in the old school shops sucks. What can anyone possibly learn from being forced to be a paid slave/personal assistant and being humiliated for someone’s amusement? We’re artists. SERIOUS artists. Yeah, I’m all for having fun and the such at work, but there need’s to be a limit. I don’t mind scrubbing toilets, tubes, mopping floors, drawing flash, cleaning windows, answering phones, yada, yada, yada. But you want an environment that’s conducive to ART. Not college hijinks. Why do shops and artists still rely on this old dated method for teaching? It’s like going backwards not forwards. We don’t expect doctors to learn the way they did in the 18th century, do we? If so, we’d all still be using leeches and bleeding people for fevers. I think art needs to be treated the same way and this is ART. It’s fun art and a great medium, but it’s still art and a business.
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LIkewise, I’d tell the guy to go fuck himself. The drawing on a cone is an interesting idea, but, why did he not just say “Make a paper cone and draw on it, it will teach you about working on varying surfaces.” rather than going down the humiliation route? That’s what makes me think that whatever this guy might legitimately be able to teach you in terms of technique, is simply not worth that level of degradation and hazing.
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I’ve been into martial arts for about 25 years, I have a black belt in a couple, but I still go to other styles and train to learn what they do differently. I would never dream of going to them and saying “Hey fk you pal, I’m a black belt, I don’t want to learn your basics, just show me the good stuff…!” If people want to teach themselves to tattoo that’s cool, but knocking the whole apperenticeship deal seems a bit crappy, people teach in different ways and usually the way they have been taught themselves. If you look at their portfolio and its a pile of crap then of course the whole hazing thing isn’t worth it. if on the other hand they have some awesome skills it might well be worth putting up with.
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I can’t speak for everyone but I think an apprenticeship is a great thing. In that relationship there should be a teacher and a student. Not an asshole and a servant. It’s basic human 101. you don’t treat people like animals.
One of the first thing taught to my son in martial art was RESPECT. It goes both ways.
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True but respect need to be earned, you cant just go around demanding that people respect you, respect the fact that they’re another human being yes but anything else needs to be earned.
The way people teach is different but theres usually a reason for it, standing in a low painful stance in martial arts seems like torture and after a few weeks a lot of people will quit, they get no respect, the ones who persevere suddenly find they have immensely strong legs and the respect (although rarely voiced) of their teachers and peers. Sorry to use MA to get my point across but in a way it seems valid :” you want to learn what it took me years to learn? Then you do what I did for as long as I did and see if youre the sort of person I want to pass my secrets on to…” -
I understand your point. And your closeness to MA makes sense to use the analogy. However…holding a painful stance is necessary to progress in the sport. I guess I’m looking more at the division between what is necessary to learn and what is simply there because there is some feeling that the teacher deserves to haze the student.
I’m a personal trainer…my job is to make people do stuff they don’t want to do in order to create a better them. I don’t yell, or belittle, or name-call, or have them do anything that isn’t going to result in a progression. I’ve seen other trainers just try to make clients puke to remind them who is in charge…that’s not how I go about things.
Some people handle hazing better than I would. If I were to seek out a teacher it would be one whose primary focus is to help me improve rather than to see what he can get me to do outside the scope of education. That’s why for the original poster’s teacher…I’d tell him to f’off. I admit I’ve always been more aggressive than passive in confrontation. It hasn’t always served me well. :)
I think if you take the teacher’s role you should be prepared to pass your secrets on rather than haze your student to see if they are worthy. I think we agree teachers are invaluable…just maybe not so much on what is acceptable behavior from a teacher.
Mark
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@TexasPT wrote:
I understand your point. And your closeness to MA makes sense to use the analogy. However…holding a painful stance is necessary to progress in the sport. I guess I’m looking more at the division between what is necessary to learn and what is simply there because there is some feeling that the teacher deserves to haze the student.
I’m a personal trainer…my job is to make people do stuff they don’t want to do in order to create a better them. I don’t yell, or belittle, or name-call, or have them do anything that isn’t going to result in a progression. I’ve seen other trainers just try to make clients puke to remind them who is in charge…that’s not how I go about things.
Some people handle hazing better than I would. If I were to seek out a teacher it would be one whose primary focus is to help me improve rather than to see what he can get me to do outside the scope of education. That’s why for the original poster’s teacher…I’d tell him to f’off. I admit I’ve always been more aggressive than passive in confrontation. It hasn’t always served me well. :)
I think if you take the teacher’s role you should be prepared to pass your secrets on rather than haze your student to see if they are worthy. I think we agree teachers are invaluable…just maybe not so much on what is acceptable behavior from a teacher.
And this is the same stance I take on the matter. I don’t see this kind of hazing going on in any other type of art related field. Or any other field period, outside of a college fraternity, frankly. Maybe it’s a girl thang. I dunno. But I had 4 months worth of an apprenticeship where I was treated like a human being and I learned more in those 4 months than I did in the 2 and a half years that I did in the shops who mistreated me. Just saying. Gotta make it conducive to the art.
Lysa
Mark
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@Jack wrote:
Hey folks, first real post for me here and i thought id start with the obvious, my apprenticeship. lets start with a little background. 29, modestly successful in the IT/computer world for about 10 years, first degree was in fine arts, after a wake up call in the “real world” i stopped graphics and converted to the IT world in search of money! well that almost killed my spirit. So now i’m giving it a real go, and chasing my dreams to do what i have always loved, yada yada, blah blah. Well i started 6 weeks ago in a shop here in Los Angeles. Its more of an old school shop but not in the Americana or street shop terms. Its a custom shop with 2 permanent artists, one of which is the owner and very well known artist in his style. that aside, i wanted to quickly discuss ethics, moral, and what to expect and what to put up with. I am coming at this apprenticeship with a very clear idea. LEARN TO TATTOO AND TAKE IN AS MUCH INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE, PUT UP WITH WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO, BUT ENDURE. So this attitude has got me through some hard shit and also some easy shit, quickly.
Lets get to the meat.
So my teacher is a 30 yr veteran of the industry, and learned from the last ones at the Pike. He also did his first apprenticeship at an H.A shop in SD, and for all intense purposes embodies that quagmire of personality. anyways, there’s the picture, here’s some details of what i’m putting up with….
This apprenticeship is very much the old school one, the one where you constantly get yelled at, do chores outside of the shop (booking flights, packing bags, driving to the airport, painting houses (not yet, but it has been implied), taking care of his animals, food, and everything and anything under the freakin sun) this is all fine and dandy, but now after “going through the hazing period) or what i thought was the end we have reached a new level of losing my self respect. My new tasks, mind you i am an accomplished and successful person who has a family and wife of many yrs. My new task is to make a dunce cap decorated with Disney bullshit. snarf snarf. chuckle chuckle. yeah i get it, but now we are approaching a new level of disrespect. i can put up with a lot of bullshit, grew up on base with a bunch of military shitheads, i get it. yippee! but at some point you have to reflect on the root cause of this hazing, his break you down build you back up part, and also his competency as a businessman or woman. this is the stage i am at, and yeah i’m not at wits end, but i am at a point of standing up and calling bullshit. paid my money, have a written contract (of which doesn’t have jargon for dismissal, only skills learned, and cash amounts). so id love to hear your thoughts on the dunce, on the whole thing, and shit id love to hear some freaking keep your chin up shit too haha. cheers guys thanks for listening.
friend,hold on it.it will be passed.
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@TexasPT wrote:
I can’t speak for everyone but I think an apprenticeship is a great thing. In that relationship there should be a teacher and a student. Not an asshole and a servant. It’s basic human 101. you don’t treat people like animals.
One of the first thing taught to my son in martial art was RESPECT. It goes both ways.
I completely agree. the door has to swing both ways and double standards dont work. if you talk the talk, walk the walk. don’t ask someone to do something you too wouldn’t do yourself.
So updates!
Still trucking with my apprenticeship, got out of the dunce cap by responding to the “how’s the cap coming along?” while he was on a trip. My response after careful reflection was, the cap is great! i didn’t do it, i finally got your lesson. stand up for myself, never let someone else especially customers walk all over you and be steadfast with your morals. thank you for this lesson i really do appreciate it. so with that, he was unable to turn down a opportunity for his ego and absorbed the newly laid grounds. a couple weeks have passed now with a lot more respect in a generally friendly environment (just took a turn for the worst, ill elaborate later). that being said, there is a giant lack of teaching going on, i’m there at the shop everyday, cleaning, already talking to clients and setting up possible consultations. in that area, we are moving right along. but in the actual learning of machines, needles, autoclave and general duties to maintain the shop and support the artist, its lacking. patience is the word of the year here. cheers for reading, more updates later.
btw thanks again!
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@Viper65 wrote:
your a better man that me bro…hang in there. 8-)
thanks buddy, i refuse to be a statistic. Hopefully some of this can help someone else. ill keep the board updated. cheers!
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Well, that was a ride. So a little catch up. I Progressed recently to doing some tattoo’s out of the shop on friends and a few walk ins, 75% happy with the results, tons to learn with wielding a machine, and tons more technique. its funny, before i thought i knew all the questions i wanted answers to, now all my questions have changed. That being said, i am on my way, with about a dozen clients lined up, got my lil magic show put together, etc. Then it happens. also a lil back story before we get wet. The shop has progressively been going down the tubes, in its 20 something yrs of existence, the last 5 yrs have basically equated to everyone leaving the shop, all apprentices bailed and on average lasted around 4 months, and now the clients are bailing. with antics of showing up late to every appointment 1 hour late, yes 1 hour, and taking breaks every 20 min for 30 min, and finally the ghostly disappearances, where he gets up in the middle of a session and drives away, no words, no instructions, just gone. for like 5 hours. obviously the client bails and never comes back. work ethic is in the dumpster, who knows maybe this is what happens when you get burnt out.
either way all this being said, dude recently ended my apprenticeship over somethings i cant roll over on. my wife and family. since he does not have one i can see how he might not see the gravity of a concept like that, but ignorance isn’t an excuse in my book. so in short he put a ultimatum before me “the shop” or your family. (i had an obligation i couldn’t bail on and out of the 45 days straight i worked, 1 day off to escort my wife was unacceptable and insulting in his words) yes this seriously did happen. i picked a crazy one. well that’s that. im about a month short of my apprenticeship finish line and ive been locked out of the shop, my brand new machines and some old ones gone, no contact, and yeah. i saw an unsavory exit a long way away, but not this cheap, and without honor. i guess some part of me being naive or hopeful, was almost expecting some level of old school respect and civility, not childish behavior.
well, ill prevail, going to do some clients out of the house till i find a shop to go to and hopefully become the walk in guy. its a bright future and thanks for reading!
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What a damned prick! I’m so sorry…but it sounds like you learned all you could from this jealous piece of shit anyway. You’ll run circles around his ass and take all of his clients, I bet. And yes, he sounds like he’s jealous because he couldn’t find a woman stupid enough to marry him and give him a family. God, I have run into pricks just like that one, Jack. You’re going to do great and BE great. Hang in there. We’re supporting you.
Lysa
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thanks for the support guys! really awesome.
Soooooo, i wish i could post some of the dialogue that has gone on to further prove this fucker is nutso, but anyways the short and sweet of it is, after stonewalling me and refusing to clarify the status of our agreement, i was forced to seek council and make a list of demands which i thought was fair to both parties. so i did, stating the pro-rated return of the apprenticeship fees and the money for the machines for which i was buying from him. he obviously got heated and refused, threw some slander in there for good measure and proceeded to harass me over the phone and through text with threats and finally court. unknown to him i have a great group of lawyers friends and have been in legal wars before. So trying to stay as robotic as possible and keep emotion out of it, i got some juicy bits in txt and voicemails that will prove my case. Something happened where he obviously sought council and tried to settle. i had a few things at the shop, iphone chargers, stuff, etc and i had some ink and various shop bullshit in my car. he offered to settle and reimburse me for the 600 on the machines and that was it. so i agreed to meet last night. the coward doesn’t even show up, sends his grandfather to meet behind the shop. i went with a witness and made sure to see the check and what was written in the for field. and low and behold he tried to snake some jargon in there to the affect of “this sum absolves all previous contractual obligations etc”. upon reading i was unable to take the check out of principle. so thats that. time to turn on the heat and get whats fair and just. im not a mean guy and im sure everyone can see there are two sides to this story as there always is. but instead of getting vindictive and putting tons of energy into this, its got to be factual, precise and something the judge wants to see. its clear, and fucking concise. pro-rated return, machine costs, and nothing more. im aware a judge doesn’t give a shit about right and wrong, emotions and feelings. he wants nothing more than to expedite his day and move the cases right through. so i will do just that, and let the other bastard flail around and make an ass of himself.
in other news, went to the bay area convention last weekend, and got some good council from some artists i have been tattooed by and other old timers. bright future ahead, and this is the oldest story in the book. time to get busy and get strong.
if anyone out there is going for an apprenticeship and has good intentions to serve and learn in a healthy environment, please set these things as “go” and “no go” criteria. No matter what, always i mean always start with a contract, its formal and yada yada, but man even when you think you trust someone, back the fuck up and check yourself, the only person looking out for you is you. so contract up. no exceptions. secondly, do not i mean do not sacrifice your morals, family, and personal duties for anyone. thats a biggy for me in this lesson. this trade isn’t about getting inked up or coming to terms with “this is the only trade i can get into because of my tattoo’s”. its about freedom, living your life by your design, and being empowered to walk down the road of expression and service. this artform is half artisan and half artist, its also not a masturbatory artform, or at-least it shouldn’t be in my eyes.
well shit thanks for reading and sorry for the preachy shit. good luck to everyone! best, Jack
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This is an example of why i think that it is difficult to get apprenticeships..
I have worked in tattoo shops as general “get shit done person”, not as a tattoo artist.. but this is more the kind of thing i have seen.I have yet to actually see with my own eyes, someone cough up money, go in and get taught..
I get that you have to be the shop bitch as far as cleaning goes and doing up flash and stencils and whatnot.. that teaches you how to do it, and time needs to be spent on these things.
But just because it took 7 years for joe whoever tattoo guy to either get some other asshole to show him the ropes or figure it out on his own. doesn’t mean that is how it “has” to be done.I’ve seen it too many times and it’s infuriating.. trying to follow this path myself after seeing these things makes me hesitant.. cause i’m likely the type to tell them to go fuck themselves too ;)
There are other and better ways to learn a skill than being berated and belittled on a daily basis.
It’s not good by any stretch, but it is more acceptable in your late teens/ early 20’s , when you don’t have a career and a family and whatever other obligations you have..
Artists are artists, a tattoo machine is simply another tool to learn and skin is a different medium..Can you imagine every time you tried to take a drawing class, you’d have to wear a dunce cap and be called a shit brick before being allowed to even pick up a pencil..
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@Jack wrote:
thanks for the support guys! really awesome.
Soooooo, i wish i could post some of the dialogue that has gone on to further prove this fucker is nutso, but anyways the short and sweet of it is, after stonewalling me and refusing to clarify the status of our agreement, i was forced to seek council and make a list of demands which i thought was fair to both parties. so i did, stating the pro-rated return of the apprenticeship fees and the money for the machines for which i was buying from him. he obviously got heated and refused, threw some slander in there for good measure and proceeded to harass me over the phone and through text with threats and finally court. unknown to him i have a great group of lawyers friends and have been in legal wars before. So trying to stay as robotic as possible and keep emotion out of it, i got some juicy bits in txt and voicemails that will prove my case. Something happened where he obviously sought council and tried to settle. i had a few things at the shop, iphone chargers, stuff, etc and i had some ink and various shop bullshit in my car. he offered to settle and reimburse me for the 600 on the machines and that was it. so i agreed to meet last night. the coward doesn’t even show up, sends his grandfather to meet behind the shop. i went with a witness and made sure to see the check and what was written in the for field. and low and behold he tried to snake some jargon in there to the affect of “this sum absolves all previous contractual obligations etc”. upon reading i was unable to take the check out of principle. so thats that. time to turn on the heat and get whats fair and just. im not a mean guy and im sure everyone can see there are two sides to this story as there always is. but instead of getting vindictive and putting tons of energy into this, its got to be factual, precise and something the judge wants to see. its clear, and fucking concise. pro-rated return, machine costs, and nothing more. im aware a judge doesn’t give a shit about right and wrong, emotions and feelings. he wants nothing more than to expedite his day and move the cases right through. so i will do just that, and let the other bastard flail around and make an ass of himself.
in other news, went to the bay area convention last weekend, and got some good council from some artists i have been tattooed by and other old timers. bright future ahead, and this is the oldest story in the book. time to get busy and get strong.
if anyone out there is going for an apprenticeship and has good intentions to serve and learn in a healthy environment, please set these things as “go” and “no go” criteria. No matter what, always i mean always start with a contract, its formal and yada yada, but man even when you think you trust someone, back the fuck up and check yourself, the only person looking out for you is you. so contract up. no exceptions. secondly, do not i mean do not sacrifice your morals, family, and personal duties for anyone. thats a biggy for me in this lesson. this trade isn’t about getting inked up or coming to terms with “this is the only trade i can get into because of my tattoo’s”. its about freedom, living your life by your design, and being empowered to walk down the road of expression and service. this artform is half artisan and half artist, its also not a masturbatory artform, or at-least it shouldn’t be in my eyes.
well shit thanks for reading and sorry for the preachy shit. good luck to everyone! best, Jack
Hey Jack,
Any chance of an update on how it went in court? I’m too curious now not to ask. Hope you finally got an apprenticeship that worked out, and that fucker got what he deserved.
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I believe many of you are experiencing the mindset of artists that were treated that way and rather than rise above the hazing and school yard antics they buy into it and continue the stupidity. If you’re apprenticing in a shop and working 40+ hours a week for your apprenticeship then that is payment enough for them to take you by the side and begin teaching you in their down time, etc. If you’re doing nothing but grunt work and not getting anything in return I’d rethink the arrangement especially if the artist isn’t some rising star. Take the time and do your homework and find someone that you get along with personality wise. There are numerous books on the subject, healthcare courses you can take on safe and sterile technique, bloodborne pathogens, etc. You can also learn some of the basics by watching videos on Youtube. With that being said you can also go to Louisiana to The World’s Only Tattoo School (it’s an accredited trade school) that teaches tattooing and piercing. Here’s the website: http://tattoo-school.com/
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WELCOME to earning your respect!!!! Take it, do it and get your license to tattoo and it will all be worth it!!! He is testing your willingness!! I don’t believe you should have paid for the apprenticeship.How much did you pay if you don’t mind me asking?? But at least you are getting a chance like someone else would love to have!!!!
Its not fun to be the shop bitch but its what some oldschool artist do… -
I never could get the hazing crap, understand it I mean. My apprenticeship was a lucky one. I was mentored by a woman who said “well i think you know how to use a mop so no I don’t want you to clean anything, let’s work on your skill as an artist”. That stuck with me. I was yelled at a few times, stupid beginner mistakes that I made. But never belittled or anything. And so working in my own shop now I took what I learned and applied it. Sure teach the basics of sterilization, how to clean tubes and set-up and break down, why this and why that. But never make em run for coffee or run my errands. I have heard so many times the comparison of a tattooist to a Dentist, the whole “would you go to a dentist with bad teeth” and so on. So using that, medical interns are learning, with little pay, and long hours. But learning does not mean “bitch”. It is unfortunate that there are still so many “artists” with the mind set of this. My grandfather still thinks it’s ok to refer to a black guy as a n……I don’t..In my mind paying dues is the working for no pay, holding down a job, living out your life and still finding time to be at the shop when expected to actually learn. My first apprentice phased himself out, just couldn’t handle a full time job, working at the shop and life. He never paid, but signed a 5 year contract with me that he has since asked to be let out of. He returned the books (pathogen stuff) and has moved on. Hope this guy has found a good artist to learn from, the industry needs professionals, not bitchy school girls with more attitudes than talent..Just sayin.
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