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Not sure where the correct location for this type of question is, so apologies if this is in the wrong category entirely!
So, obviously to get an apprenticeship you have to either know someone or be an amazing artist (amongst other things), but when you go for an ‘interview’ with a shop, how much tattoo knowledge would be expected from a potential apprentice? In terms of what the different tattoos mean and all about famous artists out there and various styles? Is there an accepted convention/standard, or would it be very on a case by case basis? I suspect the latter, but just thought I would check.
Also, what is the best source of explaining the meaning of tattoos? I realise not every tattoo would have a meaning, but old school, Japanese, tribal etc. Internet is a good source, but often information is very basic or fragmented and often only brushes the surface.
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Now thats a question that could have a lot of different answers.
BUT, I dont think its expected of you to know everything there is to know, on history and such.
On the tattoo jargon, all the technical things of machines, inks and so on, is not a place you should cover that much, since a mentor would like to teach theses things as he/she knows themselves.And about the symbolic meaning of tattoos… Thats an even harder question. Since its mostly what the client thinks that the tattoo means, that matters.
Although, it wouldnt be a bad idea, doing some symbolic studies, but its not expected of you. Your an a path to become a tattoo artist, not a historian ;)
If you plan on studying the meanings, then study the symbols, not the tattoo. For instance, dont search; What does a butterfly tattoo mean.
If you do, you will find a hundred different meanings ;)
For best symbolic studies, you have to know each and every symbol has different meanings in different cultures. ;) -
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As far as theory goes, most of the time your mentor won’t expect you to know diddly about how to work a tattoo machine. But it doesn’t hurt to know it.
Honestly though, I don’t know if it will come up, but I do think you really need to immerse yourself in the culture and learn a bit of history about tattooing. It would help to show that you were serious.
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Thank you all, you make good points! I think I will leave out the machine knowledge, beyond basics until I am actually in the shop, and just continue learning what I can.
As I have now started building my portfolio, the thing I am most conscious about is traditional tattoo rules, I.e. colouring, shading, placement, combination of elements. Wherever I am looking it keeps coming up with just basic one paragraph info and reference back to Sailor Jerry and the likes… Are there any websites or books that go into a little bit more detail, or do I just draw my first draft and post here asking your good people’s opinion on whether the sketch is true to traditional old school or not?
Thanks!!
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The rules of traditional tattoo seem to be pretty heavily guarded. I always loved traditional and always knew I wanted to work in a traditional shop (which I do now) It seems simple enough but it really isn’t. Half the shit you see people do that think they’re doing traditional are all wrong. Was there something specific you wanted know about traditional? You could copy traditional for ever and not learn everything there is to know. Or anything for that matter. The biggest thing is most of it really isn’t open to interpretation. There’s a right and wrong way to do everything. It’s never sort of right. The hallmark of true traditional is what I like to refer to as profound simplicity. It’s gets the point across in the most efficient way possible but still looks amazing. Ive told this to someone else but the best way to learn it is to study the masters. True traditional isn’t like something you do on the side. It takes a lifetime to master, and takes real commitment. I have had to eat, shit, and breath traditional since I started learning and am just now getting down the basics. But that shit is tattoo as fuck. That is the heart of true tattooing. But like I said. Study the masters: sailor Jerry, bill loika, Dave Gibson, buddy Mott, rollo, Brooklyn blackie, Percy waters, Paul Rogers and on and on. You can’t learn everything or anywhere close just from copying others (many try and fail) but its a damn good start. I guess what I’m trying say is the most important thing in learning traditional is to respect it. Respect it as an art form and as the precursor to most of the styles that exist today. Man I guess I’m rambling a bit but this shit is important to me. I realize this is slightly off the original question but the others did a good job of answering your original question. I could spend days explaining the basics to you bu if you have any specific questions hit me up and I’ll always do my best to answer them. I love to see up and comers interested in the old ways. Hope that made any sense to you man.
One more thing then I’m done: another great reason to truly familiarize yourself with traditional is that a lot of the rules carry over into a lot of other styles. You learn traditional we’ll and you shouldn’t have much trouble transferring the skills into other facets and styles of tattooing.
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Please do ramble on! This is extremely helpful and I appreciate time taken to answer my post! I can now see that there is simply no easy way of learning about traditional tattooing and I am intrigued! In essence where my question stemmed from was the fact that I have a small opportunity of an apprenticeship towards the end of the year (I am currently travelling…) and I have until then to build a kick ass portfolio. I have planned out the works to include in it and I would like to do 3 art works done in traditional tattoo style and the tattoo artist I will be presenting to said that she would be judging on both artistic ability and understanding of the style… and although I have a shred of the first… the second is non-existent, so any help would be greatly appreciated! I thought I could just get some guidance on the internet or a book and create something fairly easily, but I can see now that it was a bit naiive of me! As you say the style demands respect and now I am terrified I will fuck it up… So my first piece of work will be a a native american girl with a animal skull and a headdress, facing forward over here shoulder, with a flower on the side and a dreamcatcher… too much? I have not really seen any traditional tattoo dreamcatchers, maybe I missed them, maybe it is not an element done traditionally, should I not include it? I will upload a rough sketch a bit later (its Australia Day today and I am being shouted at to get ready and leave the house to watch the boats!) Thank you in advance!!!
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The Native American girl head is a good call. Very traditional, definitely a classic. As far as all the other shit, I’d scrap it. There’s a saying the old timers like to say about 10 pounds of shit in a five pound bag. Personally I would focus my attention on the head and let the piece speak for itself. I’d love to see a sketch though.
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@Jbeaufosho wrote:
The Native American girl head is a good call. Very traditional, definitely a classic. As far as all the other shit, I’d scrap it. There’s a saying the old timers like to say about 10 pounds of shit in a five pound bag. Personally I would focus my attention on the head and let the piece speak for itself. I’d love to see a sketch though.
Yup, you are right, this is the sketch and its atrocious! http://innalex.deviantart.com/art/Image-429567731 She looks like a Viking! Ha… I m re-doing it from scratch and getting rid of the skull, the horns, the dream catcher and just concentrating on getting what’s left right… (No pun intended…) even to me this looks so far from traditional its painful…
Ok, so this is a new sketch: http://innalex.deviantart.com/art/Image-429576293 (dont know what happened before, was directing to the first one!) Better? Not sure about the hair, does it matter whether there is movement, or would placid braid just hanging straight down be better? I will re-do this again today, it needs clearing up, thicker line work, better details and more colour, this is just a quick guideline…
Final work here: http://innalex.deviantart.com/art/Headdress-429602453… It does not look very traditional to me… Where I am going wrong? I kept shading to a minimum and only used base colours… Does the line work have to be thicker? This is hard!
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Your shit ain’t bad man. I couldn’t see the final version. The link wasn’t working for some reason. However you’re definitely on the right track for the second one. For the braid I would just leave it hanging but it looks fine. The biggest advice I could give you would be to finish it. I’m not sure what kind of tattooer the person you’re drawing these for is, but usually you want to stay away from showing sketches. If it were me I would finish all my pieces. Get a micron pen or one of those medium tipped sharpie pens and out line it. For traditional you want heavy bold lines. And I would definitely color the whole thing as well. It doesn’t feel as traditional to you because in essence it isn’t finished. You don’t really see traditional sketches lol. Bold lines, bright heavy colors. Look at the way Jerry does his Indian heads. Basic color schemes. Let me see if I can dig up some of my shit to show you what I’m talking about. But you’re definitely on the right track man. I think with some guidance and some honing you could be good. It’s a good design an it could be a really nice piece. But the shading and color will really make it feel more traditional. Also personally I would get rid of those little flourishes at the bottom. But that’s just me.
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Thanks man! This is very encouraging! Not sure what happened with the link yesterday, but this is the finished work: http://innalex.deviantart.com/art/Headdress-429602453
I put a bold line around the outside (0.5) and thin on the inside, do you think it should be thick throughout? I might re-do this in a bit with thicker lines, placid braid and less frills, but let me know whether you think this is good enough for the portfolio as is? (can always have two in it?)
Noted about the sketches! I had a feeling this is the case, hence me posting here for opinion, I just do not want to be running to the person I will be presenting to with every sketch as I think she might just get annoyed and change her mind…
I would love to see your stuff! It would be helpful to see what you mean, if its easier, you can PM me?
Thanks again!!
So, I re did it again with your suggested amendments, thicker lines and also I have been looking at some classic traditional and they use a lot of black, so I tried incorporating that too, this is final result: http://innalex.deviantart.com/art/Headdress-2-429801611
Do you think it’s ok to include both in the portfolio, or just one? And which one? I m sorry for all these questions, but you are best help I got so far, so I am latching on! If its annoying let me know and I’ll back off! Thanks for everything so far though!
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Great job man! Considering your experience level with traditional that’s really solid work man. It was cool to see it progress. As far as both I mean I don’t think you need to but it couldnt hurt. And yeah man as far as just trying to emulate something without too much guidence you did a great job. In the traditional world it’s not exactly perfect (too hard to explain why) but its solid fucking work, it shows you got range, and that you know how to stfu and take instructions which is a HUGE part of learning to tattoo. and I think you should be proud to have it in your folio. I would love to see more of your work. As far as my stuff I couldn’t find any Indian heads I did but I have some other stuff I can show you just to give you a feel. And you were dead on with the heavy blacks. That’s fucking key to good traditional. The old timers always tell me that a good traditional Piece should lookdone with just the black shading, and then the color is like added bonus. Keep studying the masters. That was a really impressive progression from start to finish. You’re a smart kid and based on what ive seen I think you’d be well suited for an apprenticeship. Youve got a great attitude and its really refreshing to see! Good job man.
Oh and lastly I saw you mention line weight. Usually whenever possible when doing traditional you want all the lines to be the same weight. But it’s not always possible. But definitely whenever you can.
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Here’s some of my stuff for you to look at. Now I’m by no means perfect and neither is any of my shit but it will give you a feel for how traditional should look.
First these two are gypsie heads so very similar to what you were going for so these will be really good for you to check out:
An older one I did for my portfolio when I was apprenticeship hunting:
http://i44.tinypic.com/11hqi6e.jpg
And a more recent one. Much better:
http://i44.tinypic.com/2ai4g3t.jpg
Some traditional sailor style shit. Look at the shading and color schemes:
Tallship: http://i43.tinypic.com/2m7yvlx.jpg
Sailors grave: http://i40.tinypic.com/ilaf05.jpgI got a ton more but too tired to upload them. Let me know if you want to see more though ill pm you. Hope this helps.
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Two more for good measure lol:
My life my way: http://i40.tinypic.com/29go8sy.jpg
Squares beware:
http://i44.tinypic.com/206ihz8.jpgSorry for the low picture quality. And some sre sideways for some reason. But hopefully that will help in some way
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@Jbeaufosho wrote:
Great job man! Considering your experience level with traditional that’s really solid work man. It was cool to see it progress. As far as both I mean I don’t think you need to but it couldnt hurt. And yeah man as far as just trying to emulate something without too much guidence you did a great job. In the traditional world it’s not exactly perfect (too hard to explain why) but its solid fucking work, it shows you got range, and that you know how to stfu and take instructions which is a HUGE part of learning to tattoo. and I think you should be proud to have it in your folio. I would love to see more of your work. As far as my stuff I couldn’t find any Indian heads I did but I have some other stuff I can show you just to give you a feel. And you were dead on with the heavy blacks. That’s fucking key to good traditional. The old timers always tell me that a good traditional Piece should lookdone with just the black shading, and then the color is like added bonus. Keep studying the masters. That was a really impressive progression from start to finish. You’re a smart kid and based on what ive seen I think you’d be well suited for an apprenticeship. Youve got a great attitude and its really refreshing to see! Good job man.
Oh and lastly I saw you mention line weight. Usually whenever possible when doing traditional you want all the lines to be the same weight. But it’s not always possible. But definitely whenever you can.
Thank you! Extremely encouraging yet again, but I would not have been able to do this without your input! So a huge thank you! I would love to see your stuff (I took too long to respond and can see now that you have posted it, going to check it out now :D ) and if you could give your opinion on future pieces, that would be amazing!
My next piece will be a navy one (another classic I believe?), I am thinking a tall ship, a ‘Homeward Bound’ banner on the bottom held by swallows and a couple of roses on the top…? Now, with these kinds of tattoos I understand that the placement is important? So are the swallows ok on the bottom and roses on top? Does the number of roses matter? I drew my first ship yesterday, but it was quite terrible, so I am not uploading it. Will have another go tonight.
Oh… and I am a late starter, hence my ability to take instruction etc as I know that time is not on my side! :D (its only cause you called it me a ‘kid’ and I am pretty certain I am few years older than you! Ha ha! I don’t mind, just don’t want to be misrepresenting! )
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@Jbeaufosho wrote:
Two more for good measure lol:
My life my way: http://i40.tinypic.com/29go8sy.jpg
Squares beware:
http://i44.tinypic.com/206ihz8.jpgSorry for the low picture quality. And some sre sideways for some reason. But hopefully that will help in some way
Great stuff! They look very traditional to me, but being a n00b suppose that don’t mean much! The second gypsy is awesome! Although the first one isnt bad either, purely from art appreciation point of view. Questions: what do you use to colour?
And the tall ship is exactly what I am going to be doing next! Well, positioning wise and the theme, it wont look exactly the same… that would be plagiarism!
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Oh shit man that’s crazy! It never occurred to me there was an age difference. No disrespect intended. It’s a term I use on people of any age anyway though. As far as the ship idea that’s another great one. So you obviously understand the gist of what the subject matter is supposed to be like. Which believe it or not is a huge part of it. Keep it simple on the ship. Don’t try to cram too much shit in there. Do nice clean sails that obviously comprises 80% of the image. Pay special attention to how you shade the sails. There’s a right way to do them. Study some nice ones you like. Check mine out. Anyway good shit man.i Wanna see pics when it’s done. I love to see someone interested in traditional.
Also as far a the swallow rose situation I would put the roses around the banner at the bottom and the swallows up top. Just two facing each other above the ship. Maybe some clouds. But that’s just me. The way you said could definitely work if done right. Be carefull when you shade the roses. Not too much not too little. And odd numbers when it comes to the leaves on the roses (Trust) And don’t use goofy looking swallows. You want them nice and clean. Not too cartoony.
Oh and you asked what I use for color? I use prismacolor colored pencils for all of those. I love them. You can do so much with them. I use the big round ones. Not those verithin bullshits. The lead is softer on the bigger ones and you can get darker more vibrant colors with
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@Jbeaufosho wrote:
Oh shit man that’s crazy! It never occurred to me there was an age difference. No disrespect intended. It’s a term I use on people of any age anyway though. As far as the ship idea that’s another great one. So you obviously understand the gist of what the subject matter is supposed to be like. Which believe it or not is a huge part of it. Keep it simple on the ship. Don’t try to cram too much shit in there. Do nice clean sails that obviously comprises 80% of the image. Pay special attention to how you shade the sails. There’s a right way to do them. Study some nice ones you like. Check mine out. Anyway good shit man.i Wanna see pics when it’s done. I love to see someone interested in traditional.
Also as far a the swallow rose situation I would put the roses around the banner at the bottom and the swallows up top. Just two facing each other above the ship. Maybe some clouds. But that’s just me. The way you said could definitely work if done right. Be carefull when you shade the roses. Not too much not too little. And odd numbers when it comes to the leaves on the roses (Trust) And don’t use goofy looking swallows. You want them nice and clean. Not too cartoony.
Oh and you asked what I use for color? I use prismacolor colored pencils for all of those. I love them. You can do so much with them. I use the big round ones. Not those verithin bullshits. The lead is softer on the bigger ones and you can get darker more vibrant colors with
Them.Ha ha! Its not a problem at all and none taken! With all your help you can call me whatever you want! I just did not want you thinking you were talking to someone very young (I wish I was!) when I am not :D ’tis all
Thanks on the tip about the roses, I did not know that! And I was practicing some swallows yesterday and they were going a bit swirly on me… I was gonna upload the picture, but it wont let me… nevermind!
I will try and do a first try (well, second… but we wont talk about the first…) tonight and upload…
Prismacolor? I need to look into this, your colours are amazing, it wouldnt look better if done digitally!
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